The Mentors’ Corner
—Tiffany A. Snyder, B. S. & Monica Neel, Psy.D.
The Mentors’ Corner is a regularly featured column in the Independent Practitioner (IP) that highlights discussions from the MENTORS listserv. In each issue of the IP, questions and answers pertinent to the Division 42 Student/Early Career Psychologist members will be addressed. If you are currently not signed on to the listserv, we encourage all members to participate and share in the stimulating discussions that take place. The Division consists of members who have a wealth of knowledge and various areas of expertise that should be shared with our new colleagues.
It is important to note that the opinions expressed on the listserv and within this column reflect individual perspectives and ideas only. As noted on the listserv, there are more than one means to an end. This column is intended to highlight important topics and to generate additional areas of thought and insight for our members.
Division 42 Mentor Program:
Division 42’s mentoring program, Colleague to Colleague, is up and running. Clearly, it is meeting a need that is present in the Division. We already have 12 pairs of mentors and mentees working together. I hope C2C will continue to grow and be even more successful. If you are interested in being paired with a mentor to assist you to be successful in your practice or if you are interested and willing to share some of your knowledge and expertise with a colleague please contact the coordinator of our mentoring program, Frank Froman, at frankf@adams.net.
Hillel Goldstein wrote:
I am miffed that I cannot find a postdoc that pays enough to put food on the table for my kids and me. What I can find is plenty of pseudo-psych managerial jobs that will not only put double portions on the table, but also throw in all sorts of goodies, including salaries one can live on in the 21st century. We are not taught about business in grad school, and when we graduate, the Bottom Line slaps us in the face. I entered the postdoctoral netherworld completely unprepared for what is going on: “Traditional” postdocs are usually (with the noted exception of the VA and some other orgs) offering what amount to poverty or near-poverty wages. On the other hand, one can easily find a high-paying job if one is willing to enter the world of managed care--as a manager, not a provider. Yes, if you are willing to stop practicing direct-care clinical psychology and instead are willing to supervise Master’s level practitioners and engage in various other managerial tasks, there’s a lot out there.
If APA and the profession as a whole does not acknowledge this new reality, the mass-migration of doctoral psychology graduates into managed-care managerial positions will continue, to the great detriment those who suffer, call them ‘clients’ or ‘patients.’
Mary Ann Jones replied:
I think that you might want to consider that it costs a significant amount of time and money to train post-docs. You are not coming to the field as a seasoned psychologist and as an unlicensed person will not be able to command the same salary as a licensed psychologist. You might feel seasoned as a master’s level therapist or counselor but, from a psychologist’s perspective, you are very early in your career.
There are not a lot of careers where you can command a great salary while you are still training. Remember, you need to collect 2,500 to 3,000 supervised post-doc hours. Most programs have way more applicants than spaces. Psychologists working as administrators (once you are licensed) can easily command $130K and up. Even in managed care settings like Kaiser and United Behavioral Health Care you will command a great salary once you enter the field as a professional and not a trainee.
If I had a recommendation, I would say that you should look at your career in terms of the exciting opportunities that psychologists have around the world - don’t use master’s level therapists as your compass. They are valuable and work hard and it is not an “us” vs. “them.”
Mitch Hicks responded:
You might want to consider getting a master’s level license. You can get paid a living wage and still get your postdoc hours completed. For example, I applied for LCPC before I secured a postdoc because I was hearing the same thing over and over –no license, no work. My postdoc did not require a license after all, but I went through with it anyway. Had I not had the LCPC, I’d have been at Best Buy or some computer store working until then. I remember a certain counseling center in Philadelphia sending a PD ad – they paid $9k per year. I don’t even think you can afford a cardboard box in Philadelphia for that.
Laurie Ferguson added:
I think that many would agree that the cost associated with training a post-doc is not justified by the extremely low salaries postdocs are paid. Post-docs provide an incredible amount of labor, at a highly skilled level, despite the training and supervision that is given. Post-docs already have spent literally years in training, and the reason behind phasing out the post-doc is a reflection of this understanding. I feel, for some at least, that the resistance to phasing out the post-doc is a feeling of “I suffered and why should they have an easy out,” rather than a desire to treat others justly and fairly.
Depending on the relative salaries, it is not impossible to hire 4 or 5 or more post-docs for the cost of one licensed clinician. That’s quite smart from a fiscal standpoint. Without post-docs, many of these organizations would not be able to provide the level and quantity of mental health services that they now do without this incredibly cheap source of labor. Yet, if mental health services were reimbursed by managed care at an appropriate rate, then many organizations could afford to pay their post-docs what they are worth, while still covering the cost of training and supervising.
Steve Hampe added:
I wholeheartedly concur with Dr. Ferguson’s appraisal. Words alone cannot express my utter disappointment at the propagation of the “I suffered so now you must too” rationale for the treatment of interns and post-docs. Given our profession’s purported goal of improving the human condition by advanced understanding of human behavior, how can practicing psychologists support such a cold-hearted and counterproductive position?
Let’s not forget that doctoral level psychologists are supposed to represent the pinnacle of our profession. Why should we be forced to take one step back in order to take one step forward? In its zeal to distance itself from the medical training model, psychology has effectively relegated its practitioners (especially those in training) as “psychiatrist assistants.”
Perhaps I am misinformed, but I am not aware of any perpetual debate in other - doctorally educated professions where:
- one is required to complete on-the-job training at wages available to non-college educated workers, well below the training wages of other equally trained professions;
- compensation throughout the career is also significantly less than comparably trained professions;
- as a practicing member, one must compete with lesser trained practitioners who can perform 75% of your duties
According to Salary.com in a medium sized Midwestern city, salary range from 25%ile to 75%ile for:
Doctoral professions:
Psychiatrist $148,500 - $188,700
Dentist $103.800 - $153,700
Optometrist $89,900 - $105,100
Chiropractor $65,000 - $100,000
PSYCHOLOGIST $67,000 - $88,000
Non-doctoral professions:
Nurse Anesthetist $121,000 - $142,000
Pharmacist $93,500 - $103,300
Physician Assistant $73,000 - $86,500
Staff RN $54,800 - $64,700
Social Worker (MSW) $46,000 -$55,000
Paramedic $30,200 - $38,200
Mental Health Technician $23,300 - $29,500
Certified Nurse Assistant $22,800 - $26,800
I don’t think anyone owes me anything. But I do believe, even as a “lowly” pre-doctoral intern I have earned the status to be making more than a CNA! My point continues to be that -- as a profession -- we have done a poor job of positioning ourselves in the marketplace. Because of this, with the exception of a minority of specially trained or particularly motivated practitioners, as a group, we are relegated to a lower professional tier.
As Dr. Hicks said earlier, “they will continue to pay us low wages so long as we allow it to happen.” However, in our current training model, students are afforded precious little ability to negotiate their placement. And from those practitioners who have posted, it seems that even AFTER training, working psychologists face an uphill battle to earn a respectable income, given their level of education and training.
This isn’t about entitlement. It is about equity.
Julie Nelligan responded:
I recently became licensed and am just now starting to see some decent increase in my income. So, I feel the financial pain of all those in post-doc land.
I would like to point out that recognition of the role of various professions depends greatly on the laws that govern how patients are treated and by whom. I have several social work friends and have been told that in some states (IL?) social workers are required to sign off on the discharge plan when a psych patient is being released from the hospital. Not even a psychiatrist can approve the release of a patient without the concurrence of a social worker. This type of recognition of the importance of a particular profession and the role it plays in patient care is the result of advocacy on the part of national and state professional associations. For example, prescription privileges for psychologists is won state by state and is the work of each state’s psychological association with help from the APA.
Participation in these organizations takes time and (more) money, but I would encourage you to participate to the extent you can and make your voice heard. It won’t greatly affect your income now, but it could have a huge impact on your future income and the income of those that follow you. Ultimately, it will improve the standing of our profession in the public eye and in the eyes of our mental health colleagues.
Nicki Favero wrote:
Hello. I have a question about the purchase of a tail. I have had a claims-based policy for the last two years. During a year of that I worked part-time at a private practice and saw about 20 clients. Now I am relocating and changing to a state job, which will provide it’s own insurance. I am trying to figure out what to do. I realize I should purchase a tail, but they are really expensive. There also seem to be varying lengths of tails. Anyone have any input on this? I appreciate it.
Steven Walfish replied:
I think the answer of the purchase of a tail depends completely on your tolerance for risk. The less tolerance, the longer you purchase for. Unfortunately insurance is expensive but it is a general cost of doing business. This sounds like a generally low risk situation but all it takes is 1 of the 20 to sue you and you will have wished you purchased the tail for as long as necessary. Nobody likes paying for insurance unless we actually have to use it.
Michael Benibgui asked:
Can anyone recommend a good book for a 6 year old mourning the death of a close relative (that can also be read to him by the parent for example)? Also any good book references for therapists treating grief reactions in children?
Lauren Rubenstein so kindly shared:
Books on Death for Children and Adolescents
Arnold, Caroline (1987). What we do when someone dies.
Bernstein, Joanne E. (1977). When people die.
Brown, Laurie Krasny, & Brown, Marc (1996). When dinosaurs die: a guide to understanding death.
Chodzko, Mark (1985). The Accident [videorecording].
Greenlee, Sharon (1992). When someone dies.
Grollman, Earl A. (1990). Talking about death: a dialogue between parent and child.
Lost and Found.
My Grandson Lou.
Krementz, Jill (1981). How it feels when a parent dies.
Kroen, William C. (1996). Helping children cope with the loss of a loved one: a guide for grownups. MN: Free Spirit Publications.
LeShan, Eda J. (1976). Learning to say good-by: when a parent dies.
McCue, Kathleen. How to help children through a parent’s serious illness.
Rofes, Eric E. (ed) (1985). The kids’ book about death and dying/by and for kids; the Unit at Fayerweather Street School.
Schaefer, Dan & Lyons, Christine (1993). How do we tell the children? : a step-by-step guide for helping children two to teen cope when someone dies.
Stein, Sara Bonnett (1974). About dying: an open family book for parents and children together.
Vigna, Judith (1991). Saying goodbye to Daddy.
Wolf, Anna W.M. (1973). Helping your child to understand death.
Worden, J. Wm. (1996). Children and grief: When a parent dies. Guilford Press.
Monique Kahn wrote:
I was hoping to get input from others re: how they handle requests such as these...A client requests a letter from me, or phone call to their work supervisor, indicating that due to their current mental health issues, they are in need of a reduced work load, change in hours, etc. Any suggestions? I don’t do formal disability evaluations, and am wondering if this type of request falls under that area.
Geneva Reynaga-Abiko replied:
I work in a college counseling center, so we often get these kinds of requests. What I do is get the proper release of information from the client and then prepare a letter on their behalf talking about their general mental health issues (never in more detail than the client is comfortable with, which we discuss in session). I then say something like, “I hope this information is helpful in any decision you may be considering.” I never give my own impression about what that decision should be, but try to give information that will be helpful in making a case about things. This seems to prevent me from being put in an overly difficult position.
I should also say that I regularly refer people out when I suspect that there is some kind of disability.
Melissa M. Tengowski wrote:
I am looking for suggestions and/or resources about tracking internship hours and experiences. Since the internship site is not APA accredited, there are several obstacles I am trying to avoid. I collected the licensure requirements for Washington State (current resident), but I would like hear how others have tracked their requirements in different states.
Dennis Given replied:
I just used a spreadsheet for each week, which I developed based upon the criteria set forth in the licensing application. That way you can just execute a “sum” function to get your total hours every month or, however often you like.
Emily Thomas Johnson shared:
http://www.as.wvu.edu/psyc/Current/Students/practicum_tracking.htm
Erin E Blasdel added:
www.axmpsych.com is a great site for tracking hours from the very beginning of any program.
