| Patrick Williams, Ed.D. | Transitioning From Therapy to Coaching: An Interview with Dr. Diane Menendez
Editor’s Note: This interview is in follow-up to the Summer issue that featured coaching and articles on coaching by Ben Dean and Patrick Williams. The interview is from Dr. Williams’ cassette tapes, New Directions for Therapists, Building a Successful Coaching Business, which was recorded in 1988. In this excerpt He interviews psychologist Diane Menendez, Ph.D, about her transition from therapist to coach. Dr. Menendez: My name is Diane Menendez. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio and I have been a full-time coach since 1988. Dr. Williams: Way back! Way before most people had heard about coaching. Tell me that story. M: I actually did my very first coaching session in 1983 when I was working with an executive trying to help him become an effective leader in an organization and there wasn’t such a thing as coaching that anybody talked about at that time. W: Right. M: But he couldn’t get his organization moving in the right direction. They had had a real traumatic organizational change. And so I found myself needing to invent a service that I didn’t have a name for. W: Did you call it coaching? M: My first thing out of the box was that I called it “high performance counseling” which I then changed in the next year to advertise as “high performance coaching.” W: Well you are a real groundbreaker. What is your background as a therapist? M: My background is in counseling and organizational psychology. I’ve always done a lot of work in organizations but my fields of expertise as a therapist have always been in Ericksonian Hypnotherapy and in Gestalt practice. W: Boy we’ve got a very similar background there because I got my Masters in Humanistic Psychology and Doctorate in Transpersonal so I always did more of the solution focused and personal growth oriented approaches. Do you still do private practice therapy or have you in the last few years? M: I have and I actually closed down with my last client in the last 60 days. W: So you are a full-time coach. M: A full-time coach. I always kept on maybe a six-person practice — therapy practice, partly for the love of it and recently it just became a lot to juggle several different kinds of practices so I just decided it was time to move on. I do about 60 percent telecoaching, between 60 and 70 percent, I still do about 20 to 30 percent face-to-face. But that is only as a start up for new executive clients. W: Are those on a local level or do you fly to see them when you are first starting with them. M: I’ll fly. That’s part of the . . . often when someone wants to work on leadership and they are a leader in a big Fortune 100 organization it’s really important for the work to be able to see them in their environment and how they use their energy in the present. W: Okay. So I’m hearing that one of your niches is corporate coaching. Why don’t you just describe what is the make-up of your coaching practice. M: I did nothing but executive coaching between 1988 and 1996. And then in 96 I actually got tired of traveling and I had been doing some phone work in between my face-to-face sessions with executives and I began to think maybe I could do more of this and then about that time I began to see some writing going on that advertised telephone coaching. Which got me to think that I could recreate my practice as a better mix of telephone work and face-to-face work and as I explored doing that I opened up my practice so that I now do about 50 to 60 percent personal coaching and about 40 percent executive coaching. W: Now whom do you do the personal coaching with? Different professions? M: Yes. A couple different kinds of clients. I have a few clients I work with who are therapists transitioning into becoming coaches. But the primary orientation of my practice is for professionals and entrepreneurs. . .. primarily for those who are in transition. I am usually working with entrepreneurs, not at the start up end of their business, but once they have created a successful business and want to take it to the next level. W: Or keep it going because a lot of entrepreneurs are good at starting a business but not . . . M: Often what happens is they’ve gotten a staff. Suddenly it’s not just them and so they have and want to deal with the issues of how do you make a group have a vision and create results. How do they use themselves. And so that is generally when I get called. And then I work with a lot of professionals around creating their work in such a way that it really makes them feel like they are joyful and they are fully taking advantage of all the things they are really gifted in. W: Doesn’t that sound great. I mean, that’s why people hire coaches. It’s so fun. And you also have a coach, right? M: Yes I do. And the particular coach I am working with now is 72 and I chose him because he’s business savvy, a great coach and is a great believer in bringing one’s spirit and spirituality into the workplace. W: I can just hear how your voice changes when you talk about him. It is joyful. Wonderful. Did you do formal coach training at CoachUniversity M: I did. I completed a two-year training program there but I would say the formal way I learned to coach was more applying what I already knew as a therapist and what I learned from cognitive and learning theory in creating a way to coach. But what Coach University gave me was a way of learning to apply what I knew and to do it by phone.(Note: since this interview, Patrick Williams created Therapist University in late 1998….a coach training program specifically designed for mental health therapists who want to build a coaching business. Diane Menendez and Sherry Lowry are the principal faculty) W: What shifts or personal changes did you have to make to become successful in building your coaching business? You started very early. M: Yes. And I did both at the same time for quite some time. One of the shifts I think . . . if I could think of the shifts I made like working with one kind of client to another, was in many ways a mindset of being much more focused on the goals and results with the clients I am coaching. I do a lot more work that is really structured in getting them to articulate goals, identify the results they want to achieve and in holding them kind of joyfully accountable for achieving them. We are talking about what happens if they didn’t. So my work is pretty result oriented. And then I work with them about who they need to be and who they are in order to be able to achieve those results that they want. W: Wonderfully said. Great language. M: As a therapist I was much more focused on helping the client fully understand the present of who they are right now and how they’ve gotten…what experiences they’ve had that have allowed them to be the way they are. W: What brought them to that point and what they can learn through some sort of analysis or looking at the past in order to understand the present. M: Pretty much the present focus of the Gestalt therapist that the past is instrumental in helping us see the patterns. So I would say with my coaching clients I am much more future oriented. They create the future they are moving into. And I do a lot a work with them about that creation. With my therapy clients the focus has been more helping to . . . help create a livable present. W: Wonderful. So my next question was going to be what in your language is the distinction between coaching and therapy. You’ve said a lot about that. Is there more that you could elucidate? M: I would say one major distinction is around what brings a person into coaching versus therapy. I think most people who come into a classic therapy practice, or at least who came into mine, were coming in because something was causing pain for them in the present that they really wanted to move beyond, get around or under or get away from. Sometimes I had the opportunity of working with someone who just had a sense of malaise. But normally . . . W: Something was missing in their life. . . M: Yes. I would say those clients probably found me as a therapist but didn’t need a therapist. They could have easily done the work with me as a coach and found it as satisfactory. W: Great. M: The therapy clients really do have a significant amount of pain. Another way I also distinguish is the classic way of the DSM. If someone comes in with a diagnosable issue, they are not a client for my coaching practice at least to work on that thing—to work on that issue. W: Of course I may make a distinction there that some of the DSM categories that we use to throw adjustment disorder to may not really have been diagnosable conditions. But some of the more clear ones, addiction or depression or post-traumatic stress, or anxiety disorder, certainly those need the work of a therapist. M: I think what causes some consternation is the issue of Attention Deficit Disorder. W: Say some more about that. M: There are some coaches who do work in that arena and call it coaching. And I think that is a grayer line between coaching and therapy. W: So there might be times that clientele needs a therapist more. M: Yes. I think especially…this is just my personal opinion . . . that a coach should not be working with a client around adjusting medication for example. W: Exactly. So the more medical side of ADD might be a good example where someone could coach a person with Attention Deficit but they might be sure that they also have a therapist or medical doctor managing that side of it. M: And especially around the issues of self-esteem and emotions that often accompany them. W: Yes. Cause we know a lot of executives and lawyers and therapists for that matter have ADD. So they might be very successful . . . and entrepreneurs, let’s not forget them . . . but if it is affecting their life in a negative way or an emotional way that’s not for coaching. M: I think that’s generally true. That is one place where I think the line is blurrier there in terms of what belongs in each place. I tell therapists who are new to coaching in particular to avoid those gray areas. That as they begin their practice, if they intend to have a dual practice. That the clearer they are around what they are going to coach around, and the more distant it is from some of the things that they are known for in therapy, the better they will be able to start up their practice. W: That’s well said. So even though a coach with a therapist background might be able to coach in some of those gray areas when they are starting out, don’t coach in the gray; have this be coaching and this be therapy. M: That’s what I believe. W: That’s well said. How are your relationships different with your coaching clients than with therapy clients? M: Well some of my clients tend to be long-term clients in coaching so we generally get to know each other very, very well by the time the relationship is over or whenever the coaching might find itself coming to an end. I feel much freer in the coaching relationship to share more of who I am and my coaching clients know much more about me and about what may be going on in my own life, if it is appropriate and if it seems maybe useful and instrumental as an example. I have no reluctance to share with my coaching clients. I always paid more attention to that level of appropriateness with the therapy clients and generally while I wasn’t trained in an analytical tradition, I generally tended to share much less of me. W: We certainly were always taught to be fearful of the transference and counter-transference and dual relationships and that sort of thing. M: One of the other real distinctions. My secretary once said to me she could always tell what I was doing. Whether I was coaching or doing therapy by how I sounded. I am much lighter and I have a lot of fun as a coach. A quality of lightness and a quality of fun, I am much freer with my own language and to bring lots of examples, we work much more quickly. W: Anything you miss or will miss about your career as a therapist? M: You know there is a wonderful way in which . . . I think if you work with a client over a long period of time, there is a way in which they experience such incredible growth that I have often have felt honored to be a participant in that. W: I agree. I treated some horrendous stories of people and I am thrilled to have done it. M: Yes. And so that is the thing I will miss. And while coaching clients grow, it isn’t quite in the same way and when someone gets their life back on track, it’s tremendously satisfying work. W: Well, the important point we’re making here for those listening is there is nothing wrong or incompatible with having a therapy practice and a coaching practice if both bring you joy to your life. M: Absolutely. And I think in some ways it does provide good balance because it gives you several different kinds of work to do and I think we probably become better at both from the comparison. W: You know, we didn’t talk about this earlier, but I had a vision when we talked about the kind of people that come for coaching or I think you said executives or people that might just have malaise and sought a therapist. Nowadays they can seek a coach and that really opens up the door for a large segment of the population who probably could have used a therapist but didn’t want to go because of the stigma. M: They might have used a counselor . . .. W: A counselor and now they . . . I mean what they really needed was life coaching or something to help them overcome this obstacle. M: A lot of people in kind of mid-life . . . I happen to be 50 . . . so I am . . . you know . . . some of the questions that come up about, “how am I? Am I half way through to the way I want to be. Am I satisfied with each of the dimensions of my life”. And you know for many years the only place someone could go really to talk about those kinds of issues was either to a pastor or a counselor or a therapist and if it wasn’t causing significant pain, often someone would say why go, I don’t think that’s what I need. But with a coach the creation of a life or a life design in mid life is a very powerful and creative act. The other thing, as I said a good portion of my work is with executives and working with professionals, today a lot of the folks I am working with are professionally degreed, they may be in organizations of various sizes, they may be lawyers, they may be senior staff people and many are asking is this all there is for me. You know. There’s that old song, “Is This All There Is?” And often people are saying, “I am not sure I want to stay in this career, I have been successful in it, I am not sure, I want to figure it out,” and that’s wonderful work a coach can do. W: Right. We work with people that are in transition. Even though we are always in transition, some of the bigger ones. M: Or wondering if they want to be in transition. W: What do you think, Diane, is the greatest gift that you bring to your coaching? M: Some of my training and some of my orientation is around the use of metaphor and so one of the gifts I bring to my coaching is an ability and an interest in discovering the metaphors by which we live. And helping the client create and construct a new way of examining themselves. A new metaphor for themselves. A new story for their life. W: I hate to put you on the spot but can you think of an example that you are particularly reminded of? M: I am working with someone at the moment that has a second best story. He happened to be a second child, second born, and the story of his life was always the runner up. You know, he was always the first one who was next in line behind the Valedictorian; he was the second string pitcher. And so I am helping him, working with him, around creating a story that is about being first. W: Wonderful . . . seeing how that mythology has guided him and how he can get around it now. M: And it wasn’t what he came into coaching for but as we began talking that’s the fact of what’s going on. And it starts with him being first to him. So that’s where we are. W: So we might talk with him about appropriate selfishness, or in coaching language, extreme self-care. Hey, take care of you first. M: Exactly. W: What are the benefits financially, emotionally, spiritually to you of being a coach. M: The benefits have not been financial, I would say. My practice has always been really good, no matter where I took it. But what they have been is in terms of the time it took to earn money, so that my time is very valuable. Now because I can coach by phone I don’t spend time traveling to places and so I would say my rate per hour has gone up quite a bit. W: So your income is where it might have been before but you’re working less hours to get it? M: Yes. I am spending less time getting to and from so I have more time for me, which is worth a lot. So in terms of my well being and my spiritual development, that’s very rich. So the time I might have spent commuting, traveling to places, doing things that were not as exciting to me, I now spend on pursuits that I want to spend it on. That’s been wonderful. So it’s been richly rewarding in that respect. And other thing is the telephone coaching has opened up a real wealth of possible clients from many different places in the world. I work with clients in Hong Kong and I love working with people who are in other cultures, especially when I’ve been there and know what some of that experience is. I do have experience in that part of the world. Not a lot but a little. So it’s great to be able to both learn and support others. W: Can you say a little bit about . . . I don’t think we mentioned this . . . what you charge and how you structure your coaching relationship? M: I generally coach three times a month. For phone coaching. And depending on where the client is coming in, my fees will range from $350 a month for that three times a month. The calls are generally 45 to 55 minutes and you can range up to $900 a month depending on the fee scale…depending on what kind of services. W: What would be a $900 a month? M: A $900 a month client is one who wants a scheduled three times a month call. They may want more than the allotted time, but they also want the flexibility and get call backs at several other times during the week or during the month. They may want me to read a lot of what they are writing. When I am working with entrepreneurs who are putting out business plans I do a lot of work with looking at what’s going out of their office. And supporting them in creating and getting more of what they want. So it’s more of an on-call. W: You’re more like on retainer? M: Yes. W: I know a lot of coaches, whatever fee, $300 or $400 a month, they still do the extras of E-mail support and FAX support. But what I’m hearing you say is they get more than just a five-minute call with you between scheduled sessions. You might review their business plans, you might spend another half an hour time with them and they might be calling from the airport and want to get you. What are the benefits and advantages of coaching to your client? We talked about the benefits are to you. M: I think a client who engages a coach grows much more rapidly. So that what they may have been learning or growing from their experience, when they hire a coach they will grow in great direction much more rapidly than they would have. And they will also choose directions that they might not have been able to select for themselves. W: So you are likely coaching people who are already successful and might have been very successful anyway but with a coach they can be more so or more effortlessly . . . M: Or more satisfied. W: More satisfied, right. M: I do . . . a number of my clients are . . . you asked me about niches. . . I have a niche in coaching family businesses and my work as a therapist has been very helpful for that. I’ve had several years of training in family systems work. But I am coaching, I’m not doing therapy. So that for a client who is in a family business situation, often a coach brings that kind of objectivity to the situation and helps the client work on the business issues and separate them from some of the personal and familial issues. I’ve helped patriarchs for example determine how and when to pass their businesses down. I’ve helped them select a successor. I helped a family business that was two brothers unscramble their sibling relationship W: And your skills as a therapist were helpful there. M: Absolutely. W: Now when you do that kind of work, that’s a unique niche and one that those that know family businesses, probably ripe for coaching. M: Those who are family therapists, it’s a great niche for them to consider moving into. W: Do you do that by telephone or is that in person? M: That can be by telephone. W: Okay. So if you coach more than one person, how do you get where you’re coaching more people in the business than just the executive or the owner? M: It depends on who calls me first and then I usually have a contracting section so I determine who the client is for the coaching. Sometimes that can be one of the business owners, not all. Other times it can be both or multiple people and with one of the family businesses I worked on, generally I did most of the calls with one of the owners, but I had one call a month with the two brothers. W: So never all of them on the phone together. M: Not every call. W: Although you could do that with the technology that you and I are doing. We called a bridgeline number and you could have five, six, twenty people on that call and coaching them that way. That’s one of the greatest opportunities I think. M: But I felt that in terms of this particular coaching that given the issues that I wanted to be there with both of the business partners at the same time at least once a month because the brother who was my primary client was making some marketing strategic decisions and possibly setting directions that could affect the other end of the business. And so I was actually modeling how to keep your business clean. W: Wonderful. M: And keep your roles clean with them. W: You must have an objective person to do that. M: Yes. Absolutely. That’s one of the benefits of coaching for someone who is in a family business or who owns a business. W: Well one last question. If you could state one tip for therapists who would want to add coaching to their practice or who want to move to full-time coaching, what would you tell them? M: To be really clear for themselves about what their coaching practice will consist of and what their therapy practice will consist of. What kind of clients will come into each. And then be willing to market themselves. To put themselves out there so that the people around them in the public will know that they coach and know how they coach. And often for therapists they simply have not been comfortable with and effective at marketing their services. Of course if you are a hidden secret no one can come to you. Peter Drecker said, “Marketing is what you do so you don’t have to sell.” W: I love that. I hadn’t heard that quote. That’s great. M: So when I am help therapists, I help them determine how it is that they can market so that they don’t have to sell. So that the clients will find them. W: Just quit being a secret, but you’ve got to get out there so people will meet you. M: That’s right. W: Well thank you so much. This has been a delightful conversation. I am loving this. M: I want to put in one more plug. There is a Therapist Special Interest Group that is part of the ICF in Coach University and so for therapists who are interesting in joining in a telecall once a month the Therapists SIG meets on the second Thursday of the month at 8:00 p.m (Eastern). W: At 8:00 p.m. and it’s now open to any therapist. And, of course, therapists interested in coach training might consider Therapist University (www.therapistU.com). Thank you very much, Diane. M: Thank you, Pat, for making this tape series and your training available to therapists who want to make the transition to coaching.
Patrick Williams, Ed.D., is President of Therapist U., which trains therapists to be coaches. He also is the producer of a tape series, New Directions for Therapists, Building a Successful Coaching Business, in which he interviews 14 coaches about their coaching. He can be reached at: 7 Wembley Place, Palm Coast, Florida, 32164, 904-447-0802. FAX 904-447-0802, DOCCOACH@aol.com, http://www.therapistu.com, books and tapes at 1-888-267-1206 or web site. |
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